Wednesday, March 21, 2007

ToeCutter on Propositioning to a woman...

I see a recurring theme in guys that I teach and interact with.
They want to proposition a woman in one way or another. They feel
that is honest.

For example, a guy came to me the other day telling me: "I just
fell over and told my long term crush that I am in love with her.
How do I handle it from here?" ... and I groaned internally. He
largely ruined his chances with her and now will be battling to get
it back. With some probing, he told me that it just feels more
honest to let her know. That playing games and acting as if he did
not did not seem right to him. And at least he has gotten it off
his chest now.
This may sound familiar to you. This may be why you want to
approach women directly, and tell them as the first thing that
comes out of your mouth. "Hi, I really like you, and thought I
would introduce myself ..." I understand why it is appealing, but
it is not the best way forward. It is not socially adept. There is
too much room for her to say "I am not interested", and everyone in
the room will see you as a beggar.

Some people have an orientation where they just want to tell the
girl up front they like them. This might be a problem for you
especially if you see yourself as extremely romantic and
sentimental. The sort of play-acting where you and her both pretend
you are not all that att racted to one another (which is absolutely
required by our courtship system) represents something repulsive to
you. You want to find someone who will accept and love you as you
are. In short, you don't want to beat around the bush. Dating and
courtship hold no special allure for you.

Well what I am here to tell you is that you need to embrace the
game. And you need to do it in a way where you are building your
skills towards where you would like to have them when you have
achieved your goals.

For me here is the goal: to be a viable relationship proposition to
every girl you meet. It means you build skills and your life in a
different direction to the one where you walk up and proposition
girls. It means you build a social network, and are very good
socially, and she can see that she would slot straight into that
spot in your life, and would be very happy. You can demonstrate
this in many ways on the initial night. Dealing with her tests and
games, being good socially, having a lot going on in your life are
part of that. And with that in mind, you need to preserve your
respect within social interactions.

Girls like sex as much as men. But there are a lot of social
factors constraining her decision to go to bed with someone. There
is what the society will say about her, there is the risk of rape,
violence, disease. There is the risk of the guy falling in love and
becoming a stalker. There is the risk of her falling in love and a
fear of abandonment. But they can control their own emotions, but
not those of other people. They have a minimum standard that has to
be met to sleep with a guy when she is without sex in her life.
That is that it will not get weird or anything. That he will not
fall in love and tell her he loves her. That it will not be awkward
when he sees her again. That he will not brag to all his friends.
Or tell his friends about any sexual disfunction. And that she will
not regret it. It has to be comfortable for her.

So that is, to me, bottom level game. Like the minimum required.
And I know that some guys will walk up to 100 girls and say some
variation of a proposition to see where it gets him. He is shooting
at nothing more than that bottom level game. And the strategy is
not a successful one. In the social psychology literature, Clark
and Hatfield (1989; see PIP p.37) did a study where att ractive
strangers walked up offering to have sex with students. None of the
female students accepted but 75% of the males did. If this was not
working for extremely att ractive model quality men on campuses,
then why would it work for you? Some men believe in it though, even
though it burns their social capital and is only shooting at bottom
level game.

Then as you come up in your skill development at flirting, she will
still sleep with you because you are not going to get weird on her
and tell her you love her on the second night or anything, but now
she likes you on a deeper level also.

The ultimate, at the top, is where you can keep any girl you ever
interact with. All of them want to move into your house and for you
to have them as your woman. You are a dream that is not realistic
for most of the girls you speak to. But they will definitely still
sleep with you. You have a line up of girls behind you, not just
because you are some sort of sexual presence that will not get
weird, but because girls genuinely love you.

Now what I am saying is that you need to shoot, in your skill set,
for that top level. Being able to keep the girls you interact with.

Any method you would want to perfect should be useful for more than
just anonymous environments. You should be using anonymous
environments to perfect techniques that are good in everyday life
social situations once you have greater access.

So what is the right way forward? The same way that would work if
you are at a work function or your cousins housewarming party with
a female friend of his, or anywhere else. You get into non-sexual
conversation, and you flirt. Flirting is playfulness. She kind of
likes you but does not know if she will be accepted, and you like
her and do not know if you will be accepted, so you take playful
risks in your conversation, your touch, your eye gestures. And you
slowly allow the sexual dynamic to unfold.

Then she is in a position to judge you and what it is like hanging
out with you. Then she has given you reasons to be att racted to
her beyond her looks, and you have given her reasons to be att
racted to you beyond yours.

A confession of love should never be done unless it is within the
confines of a relationship, and an expression of romantic interest
should not happen until you know her well enough that you have a
reason to be att racted to her (and you can get to know someone
well enough for that in 5 minutes).
So rid your mind of your need to confess your love. Embrace the
game. And get out there and interact with real women. You will find
it enjoyable, I promise.

http://www.FlirtAdvice.com

63 comments:

mybirthdaypony said...

You are really blurring the lines here. There is such a difference between expressing desperate love for someone and showing justified interest in a person.

Are you referring to the latter as well in this post?

Of course people should not just express false interest in a girl, especially at the first second of the interaction ("I like you, what's your name?") unless he had some way to let her know that he truly felt that way, which is not very easy.

The thing is, eventually expressing your interest in someone is a confident trait. It shows insecurity to not express your justified interest in a girl, like as you said, for fear of getting rejected and looking stupid afterwards.

It’s ironic, but showing your interest to a girl is showing that you are unattached to the girl, while NOT showing your interest is showing that you ARE attached. Just you TALKING to the girl shows your interest, so if you don’t state your intent, she sees that you are too shy to escalate. Stating intent is basically saying, “Although I think you are sexy, and interesting, and awesome, I dont NEED you, I just want you. I can easily do without you if you reject me. Thats what it means by “putting the relationship on the line.” That’s what builds attraction.

So not showing your interest may be thought of as the “cool” thing to do, but in reality, it really shows that you are insecure, needy, and shy.

If you are telling us NOT to do this, then I suggest you rethink your game plan. If you were only referring to desperate interest, I suggest you make this post more clear.

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T. said...

@mybirthdaypony:

There's a common saying that used to always come up at my fiction writing classes: "show, don't tell." Stating outright that you are interested in someone I think often displays low value, almost like you're asking permission to move further. I think clear actions showing interest are always preferable to just blurting out your feelings, as actions convey more confidence and value than talk.

Stating your feelings can lead to all types of unwanted results. It puts the woman on the spot as you wait for her response. It gives her time to think and talk herself out of something. She may be too nice to outright reject you and just strings you along with mixed messages. Now taking action, on the other hand, like going for a kiss close, is great because she will either kiss you back or pull away instinctively. BAM! No need to wonder if she likes you. You get your answer right there.

In general, I never liked just stating I'm interested unless I'm going for a kiss close immediately afterwards. In my younger days, when I did the overt statement of interest, even when it worked out for me I could feel that the girl lost respect for me for my lack of aggression. Even when it worked, it failed.

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Why isn't this updated anymore?

Mack Tactics said...

This article makes some good basic points. Solid advice. As for taking your game to the next level, a really good program is Mack Tactics. If you've got decent fundamentals and want to sharpen your game and start scoring the "9s" and "10s," I'd recommend downloading the free Mack Tactics book at http://www.macktactics.com.

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